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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, November 23 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1390<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Imperial culture<BR>
Re: Inevitability of government failure<BR>
Marc's Poll<BR>
RE: X-Files scenarios in Trav (the d'Alemberts)<BR>
Re: package deliveries<BR>
Re: Superpowers<BR>
Re: 3d imperium<BR>
Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery<BR>
Re: Marc's Poll<BR>
Re: Ming the Merciless (was MONGO NATIONAL GUARD FLEES IN TERROR!!)<BR>
Re: Weapons of mass destruction (Was: Traveller Nav, Gun...)<BR>
Re: OT: Dogma<BR>
Re: SEC : UNCLASSIFIED - Re: Superpowers<BR>
Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery (longish)<BR>
Re: Ortillery VS Gropos<BR>
Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery<BR>
Re: Marc's Poll<BR>
Re: Re Loans and Indentures<BR>
Re: Fifth Frontier War<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:34:58 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial culture<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 22 Nov 1999, Steven Hudson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>  <ahem>  consider:<BR>
>         the probable linguistic roots of "Aslan"<BR>
>         the population described in A:9, Nomads of the World Ocean.<BR>
>         the basis (AM:8, p.8) of the Darrian technical explosion.<BR>
> <BR>
>  The OTU is _Turks in Space_! And while you might not want to turn your<BR>
> backs on them, at least they're humble about their achievements :><BR>
> <BR>
>   Deal with it :)               <fnord><BR>
<BR>
Works for me!<BR>
<BR>
One of the few things in sci-fi that bugs me more than Yanks in Space<BR>
Syndrome is Yanks Imagining Samurai/Jinshi in Space Syndrome.  I mean, get<BR>
real!  First of all, on a purely practical note, everyone knows that Yanks<BR>
are going to come out ahead every time, so it's hardly credible.  Then you<BR>
add in the problem that people are dealing with half-understood<BR>
"orientalist" stereotypes they don't even think about the ramifactions<BR>
of...  Well, anyway, Turks in space sounds like a good compromise.<BR>
<BR>
Kenji<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:41:32 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Inevitability of government failure<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> This sort of Marxist analysis suggests some questions.  What conditions<BR>
> would indicate that the forces of production in the Imperium are being<BR>
> maximized?  What internal contradictions are being experienced now,<BR>
> compared to those described by Marx?  How much of a threat to the status<BR>
> quo would an efficient communist or anarchist world be?  How much of a<BR>
> threat would it be perceived to be?  <BR>
<BR>
Comrade!<BR>
<BR>
Despite the best attempts of the craven opposition to deflect the OTU into<BR>
a parallel universe where the Sayat are unable to link up with Baddies<BR>
from the Core, Virus, and other progressive elements, soon the running<BR>
tree-dogs of the noble and megacorporate classes will be roasting on spits<BR>
while the newly liberated working sophonts of the Imperium rejoice and<BR>
reload.<BR>
<BR>
The only condition necessary for this is the creation of a GURPS:<BR>
Traveller "race template" for the Sayat.<BR>
<BR>
We leave this in the capable hands of inevitability.<BR>
<BR>
Kenji<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 17:51:30 -0600<BR>
From: Eris reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Subject: Marc's Poll<BR>
<BR>
On Marc's site there is a poll for favorite edition of Traveller. I<BR>
just checked it and it appears that someone is "stuffing" the voting<BR>
box. <g>  There are 1784 votes and the counter at the bottom of Marc's<BR>
site list only 1548 visitors.<BR>
<BR>
Ok, fess up.  Who's been voting "early and often?" <eg><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:06:41 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: RE: X-Files scenarios in Trav (the d'Alemberts)<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
My apologies for a late reply to this thread.<BR>
<BR>
Steven said:<BR>
>>Also see "The Circus" from E. E. "Doc" Smith's "Family d'Alembert" series:<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>>In terms of the nobility and empire background, the series is very<BR>
>>Traveller-esque - or maybe Trav was influenced by this series? The nobility<BR>
><BR>
>Trav predates that series, AFAIK (which was also very heavily contributed<BR>
>to by a co-author whose names escapes me - Goldin?).<BR>
<BR>
My copy of "The Imperial Stars", the first volume of the Family d'Alembert<BR>
decalogue, is copyright 1976. Even the 4th book goes back to 1977.<BR>
<BR>
Stephen Goldin is listed as "co-author", but I agree - I have a feeling that he<BR>
is doing more than that. Probably compiling and expanding from a basic skeleton<BR>
of "Doc's" ideas.<BR>
<BR>
Traveller dates from 1977. The nobility and royal family were determined some<BR>
time after that.<BR>
<BR>
Here are some similarities between the d'Alemberts and Traveller (Methinks a<BR>
"tip o'the hat" to the series?):<BR>
<BR>
a. Names<BR>
<BR>
Family d'Alembert        Traveller<BR>
- -----------------        ---------<BR>
Emperor Stanley          Emperor Strephon<BR>
Empress Irene            Empress Iolanthe<BR>
Crown Princess Edna      Grand Princess Ciencia<BR>
<BR>
Oh - and only the one heir, so that:<BR>
     (i) she knows she would inherit (and therefore not think about ways to get<BR>
rid of her father), and<BR>
     (ii) to prevent sibling rivalry over the throne.<BR>
<BR>
b. Nobility<BR>
<BR>
Here's what the first book says about the nobility:<BR>
<BR>
"As one of her principled reforms, Empress Stanley Five imposed on society the<BR>
formal hierarchical structure still in use today. Given the fact that<BR>
stratification was inevitable in any social system, she elected to introduce the<BR>
arrangement that had served mankind the longest - that of hereditary<BR>
nobility(*). Her logical mind took what was essentially a chaotic state of<BR>
affairs and, in a sense, standardised it. All inhabited space was divided into<BR>
thirty-six Sectors, with Earth considered to be the centre of the sphere. Each<BR>
Sector is ruled by a Grand Duke, and may contain hundreds of planets. Single<BR>
planets are ruled by dukes. Marquises rule continents or the equvalent thereof.<BR>
Earls rule over what would previously have been considered states or small<BR>
nations., Counts rule countries. Barons - the lowest ranking nobility - rule<BR>
cities or districts."<BR>
E. E. "Doc" Smith (with Stephen Golding), "The Imperial Stars", Granada<BR>
Publishing Ltd, UK, 1976, p 79.<BR>
<BR>
(*) Hey Jeff, here's another argument in favour of the nobility!<BR>
<BR>
c. Cover Art<BR>
<BR>
Chris Foss did the cover art for the series AND for T4. In fact, some of the the<BR>
same pictures are used, as follows:<BR>
<BR>
Book 5: The Bloodstar Conspiracy     T4 Book G: Missions of State<BR>
Book 10: Revolt of the Galaxy        T4 Book ?: Gateway (Long Way Home Pt 2)<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah, and in all cases, the cover pics bear no relationship to the contents.<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
d. Equal Fights<BR>
<BR>
There is no discrimination between the abilities of Jules and Yvette (an ideal<BR>
upheld in Traveller character creation, as opposed to AD&D's weaker women -<BR>
something, BTW, my gaming group *never* followed). Both are heavy-worlder<BR>
gymnasts, just as capable as each other. Oh, the *only* difference is that Jules<BR>
is the only thousand-pointer currently alive, while Yvette "only" scored 999 (on<BR>
S.O.T.E.'s thousand-point ability test).<BR>
<BR>
e. Scope<BR>
<BR>
They keep saying "The Galaxy", but they don't actually mean it. The Empire<BR>
really has only as many (or maybe even less) systems than the Imperium's "11,000<BR>
Worlds".<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Finally, the series is a masterpiece for all you conspiracy lovers. The whole<BR>
thing deals with the heroes and heroines uncovering the conspiracy, one piece at<BR>
a time. Even things that don't appear to be part of the conspiracy (eg. book 2,<BR>
"Strangler's Moon") are eventually tied in!<BR>
<BR>
...and those who play TNE may find it interesting, as well. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
(You've now got me re-reading the series, blasters, stunners, nitrobarb and<BR>
all!)<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:38:24 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: package deliveries<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Kyle wrote:<BR>
>> That package the players have been contracted to<BR>
>> deliver was left at the<BR>
>> wrong address.  Now they have to get it<BR>
>> back...before it is opened...<BR>
><BR>
>Or how about, they're delivering something, they don't<BR>
>know what it is, but hey, it might be useful<BR>
<BR>
Old JTAS Amber Zone - the parcel contains a vase belonging to a religious sect.<BR>
The sect deems it OK to see the vase if you are a sect member, but anyone else<BR>
who sees the thing must be killed.<BR>
<BR>
If you haven't opened the parcel and just give it to them, they will be happy<BR>
and go away. OTOH, if you open it and look at the vase, you'll suddenly gain a<BR>
Recurring Enemy who'll chase you across the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
Not bad for GM's who want to create a permanent "push".<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 17:44:12 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Superpowers<BR>
<BR>
>From: "David Healey"<BR>
<David.Healey@dcb.defence.gov.au><BR>
<BR>
>If the pre-requisite for a superpower is that it must<BR>
<BR>
>be able to exert it's will with or without the co-<BR>
>operation of other nations, then no-one has, as yet, <BR>
>achieved that status.<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav : If we're using the above definition *solely*<BR>
<BR>
>as the basis for deciding who is a superpower and who<BR>
<BR>
>is not, then I suspect most of the major (and a <BR>
>couple of the minor) governments would qualify.  3I,<BR>
>Consulate, Hierate, etc.  Even possibly Arden and <BR>
>Darrian would qualify. <BR>
<BR>
No, with that definition none of the Traveller<BR>
governments could qualify -- that was exactly my<BR>
point.  Are the Hivers, for example, able to exert any<BR>
direct influence on Zhodani space?  Can the Imperium<BR>
exert any direct influence on the rimward portion of<BR>
the Solomani Confederation?  It just takes too much<BR>
time for forces to go anywhere, unlike on a single<BR>
world, where everything is in short striking distance<BR>
of everywhere else.  <BR>
<BR>
Within its own borders, each major interstellar state<BR>
may function like a superpower, but not with respect<BR>
to the other powers.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 01:51:46 -0000<BR>
From: "Mark S Peace" <mark.s.peace@dunelm.org.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: 3d imperium<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:32:15 -0600<BR>
>From: Steve Lieb <steve@necadon.com><BR>
>Subject: 3d imperium<BR>
><BR>
>Has anyone ever tried even somewhat successfully to 3-dimensionalize an<BR>
>otherwise-standard CT Imperium?<BR>
>That was always one of the things that bugged me - I'm constantly reminded<BR>
>that it's a game.<BR>
>Why I loved Trav2300, among other reasons.<BR>
><BR>
I thought about it, but there's one big problem:<BR>
If you stick with 11000 worlds arranged in approximately a sphere the travel<BR>
time from Core to, say, the Spinward Marches is only a few weeks.  The<BR>
alternative is if you decide on a transit time of, say, 1-2 years you get an<BR>
empire of tens of millions of systems.<BR>
<BR>
Neither of these seems to work with the CT Imperium background material.<BR>
<BR>
I also tried to think up some reason why 'Jump Space' might be 2<BR>
dimensional, but I couldn't get anything I was happy with.  A 3d->2d mapping<BR>
doesn't work well.<BR>
<BR>
Mark.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:54:10 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Chris suggests that the big 3I would use nasty weapons on dissenting worlds:<BR>
>At some point, if you're the Imperium, and you're as hardnosed as is claimed<BR>
>in canon, you're going to have to deal with the pontentiality of hitting<BR>
>civilian populations to make it known that you're not going to tolerate such<BR>
>slacking.<BR>
<BR>
My take is that since the Pacification Campaigns, especially the abortive<BR>
Antarean Campaign, the Imperium has realised that this sort of thing doesn't<BR>
work that well. It's not good economics, for one thing.<BR>
<BR>
Since the Alkhalikoi dynasty has been in power, all the Imperium does is<BR>
increase diplomatic pressure, up to and including Red Zoning the system (part of<BR>
which included destroying the world's starships and ship building facilities, if<BR>
any). This quarantines the world from interstellar trade, which Far Trader<BR>
suggests is necessary for the world to survive and rise in TL. Naturally, it<BR>
works better on some worlds than others - Ag worlds can hold out better than<BR>
Vacc worlds, for example. Some worlds even prefer not to rise in TL - oh well,<BR>
they're not going to produce a lot of tax, in any event.<BR>
<BR>
The Imperium takes the long view, that the world will, sooner or later, decide<BR>
to rejoin and petition for a removal of the interdiction.<BR>
<BR>
This policy works for the odd one or two worlds that try it. A concerted effort<BR>
to leave the Imperium by a group of worlds hasn't occurred yet - at least, not<BR>
until the Rebellion... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
...then the policy changes to the Black War scenario, which is (really) what you<BR>
have all already suggested would be the final outcome...<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:18:54 -0500<BR>
From: "Swordy (Colin MIchael)" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Marc's Poll<BR>
<BR>
How dare you impugn my character that way!  Are you saying that, just<BR>
because I am a CT fanatic, I would try to rig the polls?  Okay, so it may<BR>
have crossed my mind a few dozen times, *but* I have a lot of self<BR>
discipline.  Actually, it may have something to do with the counter start<BR>
date.  By the time it began ticking on 10/31/99 I had long since cast my<BR>
*single* vote.<BR>
<BR>
- -Crusty<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Eris reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
> On Marc's site there is a poll for favorite edition of Traveller. I<BR>
> just checked it and it appears that someone is "stuffing" the voting<BR>
> box. <g>  There are 1784 votes and the counter at the bottom of Marc's<BR>
> site list only 1548 visitors.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 20:31:54 -0600<BR>
From: "shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Ming the Merciless (was MONGO NATIONAL GUARD FLEES IN TERROR!!)<BR>
<BR>
can we do stats for Emperor Wang the Perverted while were at it?<BR>
or is the Zhodani invasion of the planet Porno too much to ask for?<BR>
<BR>
it would make a good GURPS Traveller/GURPS Sex crossover<BR>
or what happens when a squad of Zho commandos goof the port<BR>
and land in Callahans, or Lady Sallys<BR>
<BR>
hmm.... IRC game for new years eve <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Shadowcat AKA Kevin Walsh<BR>
Captain of the Free Trader Beowulf<BR>
ADD/ADHD Advocate<BR>
http://www.advancenet.net/~meow<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:25:31 -0500<BR>
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Weapons of mass destruction (Was: Traveller Nav, Gun...)<BR>
<BR>
At 09:35 PM 11/22/99 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>At 01:37 PM 11/21/99 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>>Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
>>Hehe... if we (stupid humans) learned from history, that is, we<BR>
would<BR>
>>have come to the same conclusion. I do not have the exact wording<BR>
for<BR>
>>this quote, but one of the Wright brothers said (about the flying<BR>
>>machine) that this machine will make further wars impossible, since<BR>
the<BR>
>>potential for destruction is so great.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Sadly enough, it had been said before. A pope (don't know which,<BR>
have to<BR>
>>find my quotations collection) once said (not an exact quote<BR>
either)<BR>
>>about a new weapon that it was too accurate, silent, quick, and<BR>
deadly<BR>
>>to allow for any more wars. That weapon was the crossbow...<BR>
><BR>
>        Dr.Gatling figured the same thing...  it was his *intention*<BR>
to<BR>
>build a weapon so fearsome no one would use it again....<BR>
<BR>
	According to the History Channel, the man who invented the modern<BR>
firearm cartridge (an ordained minister) was convinced it was too<BR>
horrific to ever be used in combat. He only wanted to be able to hunt<BR>
ducks--seems the old flintlocks had a measurable delay between<BR>
pulling the trigger, the flint coming down and igniting the powder in<BR>
the pan, and the main charge going off to fire the bullet. Darn ducks<BR>
would hear the lock click and take off ...<BR>
<BR>
- -- Chaos reigns within. <BR>
      Reflect, repent, and reboot.<BR>
   Order shall return.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:41:06 -0500<BR>
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Dogma<BR>
<BR>
At 07:33 AM 11/23/99 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>>Go see this movie.  It's wonderfully funny, and makes you think<BR>
about<BR>
>>religion and God as seperate subjects.  Alanis Morissette plays God<BR>
and<BR>
>>pulls it off beautifully.<BR>
><BR>
>Just what we need, a whiny Canadian singer as the Supreme Being. I'd<BR>
>rather have George Burns. :)<BR>
<BR>
	She doesn't whine in the movie ...<BR>
<BR>
	I have to say (a) I enjoyed the movie, and (b) I can see very<BR>
clearly why dogmatic "Christians" will despise it<BR>
<BR>
- -- Chaos reigns within. <BR>
      Reflect, repent, and reboot.<BR>
   Order shall return.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:58:16 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: SEC : UNCLASSIFIED - Re: Superpowers<BR>
<BR>
- --- David Healey <David.Healey@dcb.defence.gov.au><BR>
wrote:<BR>
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:12:21 -0800 (PST)<BR>
> From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
> <BR>
> <Glenn><BR>
> A superpower in contemporary times means a nation<BR>
> that<BR>
> can effectively exert its will anywhere in the world<BR>
> in a very short time, without any other power's<BR>
> cooperation.  The United States is presently the<BR>
> only<BR>
> nation with that capability.<BR>
> </Glenn><BR>
> <BR>
> Please bear in mind I'm *not* on a Yank-bash here.<BR>
> <BR>
> Based on that definition alone, would the US really<BR>
> be a superpower ?  Could they have exerted their<BR>
> will in Kosovo or Kuwait without the co-operation of<BR>
> any other power ?  I submit that these are only<BR>
> military examples of exerting a nation's will, and<BR>
> that there are many other ways (cultural, economic,<BR>
> ideological to name a few) of doing so.  If your<BR>
> friends and enemies alike (of whatever nation or<BR>
> state) decide they don't like what you're doing, it<BR>
> ain't gonna get done, no matter who you are.<BR>
> <BR>
> <Glenn><BR>
> Another key difference between the recent past and<BR>
> the<BR>
> Far Future is that no one in the Far Future has a<BR>
> real<BR>
> and immediate ability to destroy all life<BR>
> everywhere. <BR>
> </Glenn><BR>
> <BR>
> I submit, sir, that no-one has ever seriously had<BR>
> the will or desire to do so on Earth.  I also submit<BR>
> that no-one has ever had the ability.<BR>
> <BR>
> Dave<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Kyle writes: perhaps we could adjust the definition of<BR>
a superpower to, "without another power's<BR>
co-operation, providing that there is no widesporead<BR>
opposition." That is, if you are a superpower, "those<BR>
who not against us are with us." To be truly neutral<BR>
and "non-interventionist" means to make the strong<BR>
stronger, the weak weaker. <BR>
I can't imagine any nation ever being powerful enough<BR>
that its enemies and rivals, united, couldn't defeat<BR>
it. But just as one bully may scare twety classmates<BR>
who, together, could easily beat him up... who wants<BR>
to be the first to step forward and say, "hey, bully!<BR>
cut that out!" And if the bully is a benevolent ruler,<BR>
only demanding you let him sell you Coca-Cola and<BR>
episodes of "Friends," well, you might put up with<BR>
him...        <BR>
Of course nations _can_ contest the USA's power. But<BR>
no-one does, really.<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 13:57:13 +1000<BR>
From: Graeme_Batho@agd.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery (longish)<BR>
<BR>
In response to my post about near-c rocks  "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I'm very sorry, you must have me confused with someone else. I have never,<BR>
>in this thread, nor any recent thread, referred to near-c rocks. I'm not<BR>
>talking about near-c rocks here. Keep that in mind as you read the rest of<BR>
>my response where I ignore the prefix "near-c".<BR>
<BR>
So I went back to the source post to check:<BR>
<BR>
Chris actually said:<BR>
>"Destroying a high pop world"... Geez, would people *please* stop putting<BR>
>words into my mouth when they reply to my posts? I'm not talking about<BR>
>destroying high pop worlds. I'm talking about dropping big rocks, not<BR>
>busting planets in half.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry Chris, I missed that. I really thought you were talking about the<BR>
near-c things and addressed my response accordingly. I musta been having<BR>
a bad day.<BR>
<BR>
Chris again:<BR>
>Why would rules against using big rocks be in place between interstellar<BR>
>civilizations, but not energy ortillery which serves the same function and<BR>
>can be just as damaging.<BR>
<BR>
Both energy ortillery and deadfall ordnance are, I think, accepted canon.<BR>
Deadfall ordnance is (basically) the same as dropping rocks from orbit. The<BR>
old "smart rock" concept. Your big rocks are just bigger ordnance. Apart<BR>
from the (again practical) problems with moving large rocks, there would<BR>
appear to be no problems with using them. - Your point I think?<BR>
<BR>
However, the Imperial rule against using weapons of mass destruction would<BR>
apply to using really BIG rocks, but not to the smaller deadfall ordnance.<BR>
So the question becomes; At what point do weapons become weapons of<BR>
*mass* destruction? Just how big a rock can you drop? I can't fully<BR>
answer this one; perhaps it's covered by a treaty between superpowers;<BR>
perhaps there is an arbitrarily set limiting size (mass); more likely in<BR>
the Imperium, though, the decision would be made AFTER the fact whether<BR>
the force used was appropriate or not.<BR>
<BR>
And:<BR>
>The reason that we don't use nuclear weapons on earth is because using nukes<BR>
>can very well result in the end of civilization for everyone with nukes.<BR>
>Once the birds are in the air, say goodnight, Gracie.<BR>
><BR>
>It naturally follows that there must be some reason for not using really<BR>
>heavy weapons in the Traveller universe, and it can't be the same. It's<BR>
>handled internal to the Imperium by the Imperial rules of war.<BR>
<BR>
I think my point about the IRA covers this. Sure you could use really heavy<BR>
weapons against a planet without killing yourself in the process. But that<BR>
will make you very unpopular with a lot of people. Like anyone from the<BR>
planet. Like any megacorp with interests there. Like any noble (and their<BR>
supporters) who have an interest there. This would apply to planets even<BR>
outside the Imperium, which will have trade with and megacorporation assets<BR>
from within the Imperium. So the Imperium is unlikely to use weapons of<BR>
mass destruction against either it's own sophonts or any of the races<BR>
with which it deals.<BR>
<BR>
As to the other races, even if they do not trade with the Imperium, they<BR>
would probably not use weapons of mass destruction against worlds in<BR>
the Imperium because they fear that both the Imperium and other races<BR>
would retaliate in kind.<BR>
<BR>
SO FAR all the races found in the OTU have (for whatever reason) found it<BR>
to be in their own best interest to generally conduct wars without resorting<BR>
to weapons of mass destruction. At least, I don't recall anything in canon<BR>
that says they have. That does not preclude it from happening. Indeed, that<BR>
may be what the Zhodani et al found so disturbing about the Empress Wave -<BR>
perhaps they saw a race that was prepared to destroy without any inhibitions.<BR>
<BR>
Graeme Batho<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 20:14:14 -0700<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ortillery VS Gropos<BR>
<BR>
>less happy being british. Then there are the Quebec seperatists. And twice<BR>
>in a row they've voted down independence.<BR>
<BR>
The second time, only by a very narrow margin. And they keep electing<BR>
separatist governments.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 22:23:26 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 11/22/99 5:18:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Rock-dropping,<BR>
 or any other form of orbital bombardment is *very* reliant on your target<BR>
 being helpless...         >><BR>
<BR>
or at least having anti-starship weapon ranges inferior to the hostiles.:-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:27:42 -0600<BR>
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Marc's Poll<BR>
<BR>
On 11/23/99 at 09:18 PM,  "Swordy (Colin MIchael)" <swordworlder@clinic.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>How dare you impugn my character that way!  Are you saying that, just<BR>
>because I am a CT fanatic, I would try to rig the polls?  Okay, so it<BR>
>may have crossed my mind a few dozen times, *but* I have a lot of<BR>
>self discipline.  Actually, it may have something to do with the<BR>
>counter start date.  By the time it began ticking on 10/31/99 I had<BR>
>long since cast my *single* vote.<BR>
<BR>
Hey!  I'm not accusing *anybody* in particular, just pointing out<BR>
that about 300 more votes have been cast than people who have<BR>
visited the site.  <g> <BR>
<BR>
BTW, I notice that T5 has been replaced by GT in the voting.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:46:31 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re Loans and Indentures<BR>
<BR>
Okay, now William Hostman has alluded to a point<BR>
that's always concerned me: the huge cost of Traveller<BR>
ships. Millions always seemed ridiculous to me. It<BR>
makes trade simply uneconomical. I think of the PC<BR>
ship as a rather casually-run business. Most<BR>
businesses either start in credit (having savings to<BR>
invest), or expect/hope to clear their original loan<BR>
within 10 years, and make a living in the meantime. <BR>
<BR>
Naturally, those that succeed don't take the extra<BR>
thousands a month they've got from having paid off the<BR>
loan and just spend it, they expand their business...<BR>
(get a better ship?)<BR>
<BR>
Obviously when natural lifetimes are longer at higher<BR>
TLs, you'll be willing to have debt for longer, but<BR>
still! T4 gives 40 years as the typical time...<BR>
sheesh! If you need 20% down, why would you get that<BR>
brand new 20 MCr ship when you could get a second-hand<BR>
"engineer's dream" for 2 MCr?<BR>
<BR>
Finally, I never bought the business of "we have ways<BR>
of making you pay." How does a bank foreclose on a<BR>
mortgage if the residence has Jump-3? And I don't want<BR>
to hear about transponders and "late payment messages<BR>
stopping the engine." If an engineer put it there,<BR>
another engineer can remove it!<BR>
<BR>
The only vaguely plausible one I heard, it was a sci<BR>
fi story, for the loan the ship captain had had his<BR>
spleen removed and replaced with an artificial one<BR>
which would decay in six months, unless he returned to<BR>
the world to make his payments...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 20:01:01 -0800<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Fifth Frontier War<BR>
<BR>
Hi All,<BR>
<BR>
Yes, December 18 at 11:00 is the start time for the next meet. <BR>
Hopefully we can start another game of FFW and/or other games as well.<BR>
<BR>
Imperial Warrant required...<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Kristian Miller kindly hosted a game of Fifth Frontier<BR>
> War at his home in San Jose today.  Luther Martin was<BR>
> in charge of Zhodani/Outworld Coalition forces, and I<BR>
> was in charge of Imperial forces.  We met at about 11<BR>
> a.m., and adjourned about 4 p.m.  We set up and<BR>
> plotted moves, and completed turn one (see my press<BR>
> release: "Mongo National Guard Flees in Terror!!").<BR>
> <BR>
> Kristian has a fine garage set aside for gaming, and<BR>
> we have left the board and other charts set up.  We<BR>
> plan to reconvene on Saturday 18 December 1999 at<BR>
> 11:00 a.m.  Anyone interested is welcome to join us<BR>
> for team play, other games, or even double-blind team<BR>
> play.  Please email Kristian off-list for directions.<BR>
> <BR>
> We shall be posting press releases for as long as we<BR>
> are playing.<BR>
> <BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
> __________________________________________________<BR>
> Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1390<BR>
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